Listen to this article online
Podcast episode available on Spotify
Podcast episode available on YouTube
“Intro: Cancel Culture”
Kirsten Maarschalk: Jamie cancel culture. This is such a pressing topic, and I’m so keen to discuss it with you. I mean, you and I had, this collaboration recently with the digital campus. And when you started speaking about cancel culture and I watched your presentation, it just sparked so much for me. And, I’m so, so keen to discuss more with you.
Kirsten Maarschalk: So thanks so much for coming on to my show.
Jamie Wyngaart: It’s a pleasure. I think your presentation was also amazing. Must get the stuff from Wits. They did a good job, with the entire session, but cancel culture is quite a sensitive topic. It’s something that’s been, I almost feel like it’s changed from the good that it’s supposed to do of giving the marginalized, the voice.
Jamie Wyngaart: And it’s now become a tool for bullying.
Kirsten Maarschalk: Yeah. It’s ironic. It’s exactly that it’s like something that, that would cancel out bullies has now just become this massive bullying tactic. So for those who don’t know, it’s obviously a bit of a buzzword, and very often, you know, people hear buzzwords and just expect that they are meant to understand what it means, but for those who don’t understand, cancel culture, what exactly is?
Jamie Wyngaart: So cancel culture initially, and there is a nice quote that I like. It says, “I may not have power, but what I do have is the power to ignore you”, and that’s where it started. That’s where says that we, as a society, as individuals that usually look up to celebrities or people of influence can say, I’m not going to give you that influence anymore because I am going to ignore you and that changes the narrative because there often are quite a bit of problematic influencers, and what cancel culture does is takes the power away from those influencers, and I would say gives it back to the hands of the consumers. Um, in the real world, we’ve witnessed this the way the youth overthrew Apartheid or the way the world took on the Berlin wall. So this isn’t a new concept, just that now with the introduction of technology, anyone can become a cyber warrior with the little phone, with the keyboard where it’s about saying, I don’t like that, and I’m going to cancel you, and I’m going to tell all my friends, not to listen to you and not to buy your things and not to be there with you or not to be associated with you.
“Unintended consequences of cancel culture”
Jamie Wyngaart: Even, I would say it’s rightfully that he’s canceled. But what I don’t like is cool, justice was served, is not saying to present his net worth is negative 2 million. He did a lot of bad stuff bad in the, I want to say bad loosely because good and bad is also another thing of perception, but what I don’t like is because all his music that is worked on has been removed from all the streaming services. Everybody else has worked with him. So, um, the producers, the directors, the managers, the brands, they’re also taking on getting any more royalties or money from it because what people think of the artist because they’re the face of something, they think they get all the money. They get like 5% the rest of the money gets put up to the entire team that worked with them, but because some, because one person was problematic everybody else loses out. And also we can’t listen to music anymore. Yeah, unfortunately.
“Brand Awareness connected to cancel culture”
Jamie Wyngaart: And what’s happened, the spinoff of cancel culture is because of this brands now feel threatened and say, “okay, because I’m supporting Jamie if Jamie gets canceled, I need to completely remove myself from Jamie, not sponsor Jamie, not be part of Jamie, delete all Jamie’s when he features in our things and to have a clean slate, because if I’m associated with Jamie and Jamie’s canceled, people can turn that on and cancel me”. Confusing because I’m Jamie, but the way brands are seeing this and the difficult thing on this is when it started when to cancel culture became popular because it gave the power to the marginalized, which we are all for, but the problem here is the the “Karen’s” of this world, the people that argue about things that
are very frivolous and fragile and doesn’t need to be thrown out of proportion, but make a big deal out of it because, in their reality, it is a big deal. I respect that in your situation in your life, something could be very offensive, it could be a big deal, but in the same breath, I want to say, then let that be your reality and also accept someone else’s reality that that might not be as offensive or might not be as big of a deal because what’s happening now is because brands feel threatened when a partner of theirs gets canceled and they have to take a step back the side effect is, everybody else that wanted to be part of that culture you’re still wanting to be part of that canceled persona, now also loses out. It’s not just from the consumer side, but also everyone
associated in the steam of royalties or esteem of working on the same product. For instance, if I look at R Kelly, that was a very, very big cancellation.
“Joe Rogan, Neil Young Spotify saga”
Kirsten Maarschalk: Well, this is very interesting because it raises another topic that is a little bit more recent. Um, the whole Joe Rogan, Neil Young Spotify saga. I mean, it’s quite crazy. Um, how I came across it is I follow Brenae brown. I’m a huge Brenau brown fan and I saw she posted on Instagram saying just blunt like this, just saying I will no longer be running my podcasts, uh, effective immediately. And I will let you know if, and when my podcast ever comes back on to air.
Kirsten Maarschalk: And I was like, gee, that’s sudden and I just listened to an episode of hers like a few days ago. And I love her podcast. You know, she’s got two different podcasts that I subscribe to you and… Like why? And I started going through the comments and I just saw people saying, “Well done Brené!. You’re so bold, you’re so brave this, this is leadership, um, hats off to you and Neil Young”. And I was like, what is going on here? But I’ve missed something because, because how is this a brave move? And then I went into research, and it was just very new. Neil Young had threatened Spotify, um, that is, if they didn’t cancel Joe Rogan for misinforming people about, uh, the COVID crisis and vaccination that he was going to pull his music and he did, he pulled his music away.
Jamie Wyngaart: I’m sorry, this is blatant bullying. That’s let me tell the restaurant. I don’t like pineapples on pizza. So you move all the pizzas, that have pineapples on from your menu. Otherwise, I’m never going to come to your restaurant. What? Do you know? And I can understand their sentiments. Look, Joe Rogan made racial slurs. He made comments about COVID and that’s, that might not be the correct thing to do, but then I’m just not going to listen to Joe Rogan.
Kirsten Maarschalk: That’s what I was going to say. I mean… I’ve…
Jamie Wyngaart: I mean, blame the platform for, or allowing him to say those things. That’s up to me as a consumer, what I want to listen to, and just on that topic, a friend of mine just yesterday, went through, show me, share some music with me on Spotify.
Jamie Wyngaart: He searched for it and because of this whole controversy on Spotify now looking at who is s participating in the Spotify community, the track he wanted to show me was also removed, and he felt really bad about it because he feels he’s paying for Spotify to pay to listen to the music he wants to listen to or listen to what everyone else wants to listen to.
Jamie Wyngaart: He didn’t feel that it was their right to remove what he wants to listen to because now they’re not going to give him a refund. They can take you to do whatever they want now, but Spotify behaves that way. They felt threatened as a brand by somebody bullying them and dictating to them what needs to be on or off the platform because they felt offended.
Jamie Wyngaart: Like I’m not even listening to Joe Rogan stuff on Spotify at all and even some of the other people that have been removed from Spotify yet the consumer is now suffering. We don’t even know what’s going on in these people’s personal lives. I think it’s a bit very unfair because a lot of people are doing a lot of problematic things, but just because you’re in a position where what you do is more public, you could mow, you get worse with the scrutiny in the public eye. It seemed like, you know, you wrong and you need to get canceled. We are going to blatantly- almost everybody is catching up-going to offend somebody else.
Kirsten Maarschalk: Uh, I’ve, I’ve never been a huge Joe Rogan fan and it’s got nothing to do with, you know, the information he shares. He interviewed some incredible people with mixed opinions and mixed expertise. Um, on the one side, I, I, I get the arguments of misinformation because there’s so much false news out there. Everybody’s got a microphone and a voice. And they’re saying things that don’t necessarily have the evidence to back it up with. Um, but I am a Neil Young fan, so now I’ll go on and Spotify, it’s very convenient for me. I have it on my phone. I have it on my laptop. I listen to it in my car every morning. Um, and now I’ll go on and, and I can listen to Neil young and like you say, not just Neil young, but so many other artists.
Kirsten Maarschalk: Then I go online and I see fans are pressurizing Taylor Swift to remove her music from Spotify. Now imagine the pressure that she’s got because then the argument comes up. If you’re not against it, you’re for it. So now Taylor Swift, the pressure’s on you to make a decision girl. Either you keep your music on, or you’re agreeing with Joe Rogan and how is that fair?
Kirsten Maarschalk: Like that’s, that’s a statement that annoys me because sometimes you just don’t want to be, you just don’t want to be in the circle. Like you guys fight, carry on and have your argument. Neil pull your music off Spotify. Joe, you talk about whatever. I don’t want to be involved. I just want to listen to my Taylor Swift or whatever it is that you’re listening to. Do you know? So how does that argument come into play? Like, if you’re not, if you’re not against that, you for it, that’s, that’s just not fair to me.
Jamie Wyngaart: This has become almost like a religion. People say, if you don’t believe this, you believe that if you don’t, like you’re saying, this is what cancel culture has created. If you’re not against them, you for them, which isn’t always the that’s not the situation. Cause now Taylor Swift might not even know what Joe Rogan said because she’s not a Joe Rogan. I don’t know. I’m speaking out of whatever here. But now she’s pressurized to do to make a decision that technically might have nothing to do with it at all.
Jamie Wyngaart: And because people are pressurizing for something and you’re not, it might’ve been two people that even listen to the music, just because this is another thing. If you’re not going to do it, we assume you believe we not assuming we’re going to say that you are for this person that we don’t like. And that is completely unfair.
Jamie Wyngaart: It’s like being a vegan and saying, oh because I’m a vegan, nobody else gets to eat meat. And if you eat meat, you go against all these other things. And now I hate you. And if anyone else is associated with you, whether they’re vegan or not, they also canceled. You’re not allowed to buy certain shoes, not to drive a certain car, because just say it like as a, as a vegan situation, but it’s, it’s a bit ridiculous.
“Psychology behind cancel culture”
Jamie Wyngaart: And the psychology behind cancel culture. If I’m going to touch on this, it’s, it’s a, a bottomless pit. It’s a cycle. Of needing and wanting power. It comes from, it comes from a good place. And I can understand that. But this thing of feeling feeding the sense of achievement and entitlement, when you get what you want, that is, what’s feeding this cancel culture, but it’s difficult to stop it because now you’re under threat.
Jamie Wyngaart: And as a brand economically, it’s easy for you to take a step back then to jump into the fight and then to say why you should keep your music on Spotify or why you should participate or not participate in something. Because for you just to cut ties, is easy, but there’s so much more like, wait, where do you, when you put your foot down, when you say, okay, look, we hear you great, but we’ve had enough.
“Rehabilitation is vital”
Jamie Wyngaart: And this is what we can do as a brand. What needs to happen with cancel culture instead of canceling someone you need to rehabilitate them, I would say, or educate them. So in the case, of Joe Rogan with these, with this. Things that you’d like to mention are always misinformation on COVID don’t just cancel the guy offering assistance is fair.
Jamie Wyngaart: And as a brand economically, it’s easy for you to take a step back then to jump into the fight and then to say why you should keep your music on Spotify or why you should participate or not participate in something. Because for you just to cut ties, is easy, but there’s so much more like, wait, where do you, when you put your foot down, when you say, okay, look, we hear you great, but we’ve had enough.
Jamie Wyngaart: Say, look joke, Joe Rogan will help you validate your facts will help you gather the information that to me, I feel it’s more constructive. That to me is more collaborative, but the easy way out is nope, you cancel the easy way out to create an argument. My opinion is more valid than your opinion. That is what cancel culture has become.
Kirsten Maarschalk: Agreed. Yeah. And it’s the thing that has become such a volatile environment because it’s not even the case of, um, okay, cool. Well, if you don’t take Joe Rogan or Spotify, just using this example, you know, you’re going to lose a couple of followers. In some cases for some brands, it’s like your whole business can shut down from what something that someone happens to say or do, or whatever.
Kirsten Maarschalk: That’s got nothing to do with your brand. Do you know? And, and I like the idea of rehabilitation and what was quite interesting for me is Brené brown then released another post to say that. She wasn’t, she wasn’t part of the cancel culture by putting that message out, which I don’t know if I a hundred percent agree with, but anyway, we’ll believe her.
Kirsten Maarschalk: Um, she said she was pressing pause to take time, to understand the situation, and to go into the discussions with Spotify as a podcast, as a creator who. You know, in the platform, and apparently, Spotify then sat down like a lot of their creators and spoke about what are their terms and conditions. What can they do to avoid misinformation being put out there?
Kirsten Maarschalk: How do they manage the situation to keep all artists happy? And that I agree with, you know? Um, but, but it’s funny how it’s driven. It’s driven by. The people on the ground, the consumers, the listeners. And while, as we say, that’s so empowering to know that people can have the power to do something.
Kirsten Maarschalk: Unfortunately, I think in any space of authority, it goes to some people’s heads and that’s when people act completely irrational.
Jamie Wyngaart: What, what I would trust is, the basic supply and demand. That’s basic business. If I want it, I’ll consume it if I don’t want it, I don’t have to tie to use miles or create an authority to make my opinion more valid than somebody else.
Jamie Wyngaart: And then say, because this is what I want. No one else. This is what everybody wants. And because it’s what I don’t want. Nobody else is allowed to add. I feel it’s just about what do you want? Because. Technically, if people want to listen to somebody. And if people don’t want to listen to somebody, they won’t, that’s the basics, let people do what they want, let them live their lives.
Jamie Wyngaart: Because if you feel like you don’t learn something, relax, bro. Like they just don’t listen. They just turn it off. Just checking it out. We deleted
“The safety bubble”
Kirsten Maarschalk: Carry on. You know, what I relate to too is, you know, when you are in traffic, I find it so funny. People are in their cars, in their little safe bubble and someone cuts them off and it’s like, they hooting and they’re throwing zaps everywhere and they swearing and they’re saying the most horrific things.
Kirsten Maarschalk: And at that moment in their safe bubble, they can do and say whatever they want because of no one. Okay. Nine times out of 10, we’ve had a lot of situations. It’s good violence, but now, one’s going to come and give them backlash about it. And that’s, that’s what cyberbullying and this whole cancel culture is about is like I’m over here texting from my phone.
Kirsten Maarschalk: I can say whatever I want because to come and get me, you know, we can have this argument, but that no one can get me. I’m in my safe bubble. And the same as the person in the car. Would you react the same way to someone standing in front of you in Woolies or in checkers or whatever you wouldn’t, because now it’s a real person-to-person thing?